Posts by Brock Talon

55

JWs and their views on Sex

by campaign of hate in

in the past i have read on this forum that the wt have a say in the "bedroom" of couples.

i thought that was a bit overkill at first, but recently i have come to conclusion that this is true.. the control administered by the wt cooperation on ones sex life is not on only intrusive, its damaging.

they control every aspect of ones thought and action, thus leading most down a path that said corporation wants them to tread.. this path is to get married young, and then eternal loyalty the the organisation.. so how can an organisation force you to get married young?.

Brock Talon

konceptual99,

I appreciate the clarifications of your earlier comments. I did feel you were being a bit dismissive of, and over simplifying a severe problem among Jehovah's Witnesses. It is good to see you are balanced on the topic. I don't post much on this board, but I did so on this topic because I believe it to be an important one, especially for the young people reading these posts because I worry for them.

That said, I want to add some more food for thought for you regarding your belief that the vast majority of problems in marriages is due to being "hitched to the wrong person". Although that is probably a true point, this is still related to the sexual repression of the JW faith. It is a problem of their own making for their adherents due to the unreasonable expectations of dating and marriage. It is not a separate issue.

If you ban masturbation and teach premarital sex (even once) can cause your destruction, the only logical way out is to marry, and marry young.

If you limit your potential marriage mates to whomever is eligible in the Kingdom Halls in your small community, or to the gal or guy circling around and around at the assemblies, the only logical way out is to marry the person that is the least objectionable.

If you tell young people that not only do they have to be JWs, but "in good standing and showing exemplary spiritual convictions, like pioneering and ministerial work" etc., the only logical way out is to pick anyone who may qualify that isn't too hideous.

If you tell young people they have to be chaperoned during dating and cannot even discuss sex before marriage alone with their potential spouses because it can "lead to things", the only way out is to marry that person in sexual ignorance and hope you are sexually compatible.

If you teach (or even imply) that oral or anal sex is "wrong" for married couples, and that masturbation is wrong post marriage as well, the only logical way out is to refrain and be sexually repressed and have your marriage suffer.

...or you can do as you have suggested many do and ignore all of these things, only to be terrified you will be discovered and have it all come crashing down on you, all the while suffering from crippling guilt...

Neither choice is all that good if you are a JW.

From what I have learned of other Christian churches since leaving the Watch Tower, it is fairly unique among Jehovah's Witnesses... at least to the extremes suffered by those in that faith. Other Christian churches simply just do not inflict these things as severely upon their members as the good old WTS does.

55

JWs and their views on Sex

by campaign of hate in

in the past i have read on this forum that the wt have a say in the "bedroom" of couples.

i thought that was a bit overkill at first, but recently i have come to conclusion that this is true.. the control administered by the wt cooperation on ones sex life is not on only intrusive, its damaging.

they control every aspect of ones thought and action, thus leading most down a path that said corporation wants them to tread.. this path is to get married young, and then eternal loyalty the the organisation.. so how can an organisation force you to get married young?.

Brock Talon

Flipper,

Thanks for your post. Even though I shouldn't be by now, I'm still shocked and amazed that this religion can get into marriages like that. Your story proves this was not all made up in my mind or exaggerated as some have tried to imply when I tell my own story. Apologists want to minimize or hedge just how intrusive this particular religion is with regards to sex, which to my mind is way more intrusive than the "average" religion is.

How many religions will actually excommunicate their people for having oral sex with their spouse?

How many religions will actually remove their people from various "privileges" and "good standing" for engaging in masturbation?

Do the Amish do that? Do the Scientologists do that? How about the Bahai faith? Mormons? I don't think so.

This is on top of all the other "regular" prohibitions on sex that most religions practice (due to Biblical principles that are themselves taken to extremes) the Watch Tower and the JWs take it to new heights.

For those that don't think this still exists in their JW congregations, I say this: Ask your elders. Better yet, go tell them you like to 69 with your spouse every weekend and masturbate when you are alone on business trips and see where that gets you.

55

JWs and their views on Sex

by campaign of hate in

in the past i have read on this forum that the wt have a say in the "bedroom" of couples.

i thought that was a bit overkill at first, but recently i have come to conclusion that this is true.. the control administered by the wt cooperation on ones sex life is not on only intrusive, its damaging.

they control every aspect of ones thought and action, thus leading most down a path that said corporation wants them to tread.. this path is to get married young, and then eternal loyalty the the organisation.. so how can an organisation force you to get married young?.

Brock Talon

I don't keep up with the new Watch Tower beliefs at all because I think them all to be nonsense and don't waste my time with such things any more, so I might be missing something. Maybe you guys can help me here.

That said, I would think that unless a Watchtower came out an negated the stuff I just showed that was published in the 70s and 80s Watchtowers, it would still apply. You can't even claim "old light" / "new light" with something unless the so-called new light or new clarifications or new thinking or new whatever is actually claimed somewhere.

So, does anyone have any quotes from any literature since the dates of those publications that has specifically negated or minimized the above crap that the Watchtower told me as a young person about oral sex or masturbation?

If not, then this stuff STILL APPLIES and can be used against any person in a JW Kingdom Hall committee meeting.

These were not "supposed" sex rules by the way, they were real. Maybe people are ignoring them now and they are simply old rules in the book, but if they haven't been revoked, they are still in the book.

55

JWs and their views on Sex

by campaign of hate in

in the past i have read on this forum that the wt have a say in the "bedroom" of couples.

i thought that was a bit overkill at first, but recently i have come to conclusion that this is true.. the control administered by the wt cooperation on ones sex life is not on only intrusive, its damaging.

they control every aspect of ones thought and action, thus leading most down a path that said corporation wants them to tread.. this path is to get married young, and then eternal loyalty the the organisation.. so how can an organisation force you to get married young?.

Brock Talon

konceptual99

Perhaps the last 20+ years point qualification you make about WTS and sex is valid, I don't know. But this is the stuff I grew up with, and let me tell you, it had a BIG affect on me and on my peers. If you were not affected by this stuff, then you are relatively young:

"Thus 'fornication' is set forth as the only ground for divorce. In the common Greek in which Jesus’ words are recorded, the term 'fornication' is por·nei'a, which designates all forms of immoral sexual relations, perversions and lewd practices such as might be carried on in a house of prostitution, including oral and anal copulation... Hence, circumstances could arise that would make lewd practices of a married person toward that one’s marriage mate a Scriptural basis for divorce. For example, a wife may do what she reasonably can to prevent her husband from forcing upon her perversions such as are carried on in a brothel. Yet, due to his greater strength, he might overpower her and use her for perverted sex. So as not to be prostituted in this way at another time, a Christian wife may decide to get a divorce... If, on the other hand, the lewd practices were engaged in by mutual consent, neither mate would have a basis for claiming por·nei'a as a Scriptural ground for divorce. This is so because neither party is innocent and seeking freedom from a mate guilty of por·nei'a. Both marriage partners are guilty. Such a case, if brought to the attention of elders in the congregation, would be handled like any other serious wrongdoing." (Watchtower, 1974, November 15, pages 703-704.)

"What, though, if one mate wants or even demands to share with his or her partner in what is clearly a perverted sex practice? The above-presented facts show that porneia involves unlawful sexual conduct outside the marital arrangement. Thus, a mate’s enforcing perverted acts, such as oral or anal sex, within the marriage would not constitute a Scriptural basis for a divorce that would free either for remarriage... if it becomes known that a member of the congregation is practicing or openly advocating perverted sex relations within the marriage bond, that one certainly would not be irreprehensible, and so would not be acceptable for special privileges, such as serving as an elder, a ministerial servant or a pioneer. Such practice and advocacy could even lead to expulsion from the congregation." (Watchtower, 1983, March 15, page 31.)

"Likewise, unclean practices, such as masturbation, which can be a steppingstone to homosexuality, have been dealt with in a serious, yet understanding, way, to help individuals keep clean and pure in Jehovah's eyes." (Watchtower, 1976, February 15, pages 122-123.)

"Helpful in this regard, then, is appreciating the fact that autoeroticism or masturbation is no mere innocent pastime but rather a practice that can lead to homosexual acts." (Watchtower, 1970, May 15, page 315.)
"'Every serious statistical study that we have shows clearly that . . . at least ninety-five per cent of boys and young men between thirteen and twenty-five years of age pass through periods of habitual masturbation of varying lengths,' says one authority on the subject. As for girls, this source says that 'forty to fifty per cent are found to actually masturbate'.... Because masturbation is unnatural... Masturbation (like homosexuality) ignores or bypasses that natural arrangement. It is one form of leaving 'the natural use of the female' for 'one contrary to nature'... Because the practice is one 'contrary to nature,' the masturbator pays a mental penalty. The habitual practice cripples his social and emotional development, hinders his attaining a healthful outlook and attitude toward the other sex and toward people in general. It can 'turn the person inward' upon himself, making him introverted. Or it can, and frequently does, lead into homosexuality, in which the person, not satisfied with his lonely sexual activity, seeks a partner for mutual sex play." (Watchtower, 1973 September 15, pages 564-565.)

55

JWs and their views on Sex

by campaign of hate in

in the past i have read on this forum that the wt have a say in the "bedroom" of couples.

i thought that was a bit overkill at first, but recently i have come to conclusion that this is true.. the control administered by the wt cooperation on ones sex life is not on only intrusive, its damaging.

they control every aspect of ones thought and action, thus leading most down a path that said corporation wants them to tread.. this path is to get married young, and then eternal loyalty the the organisation.. so how can an organisation force you to get married young?.

Brock Talon

This topic has always been of interest to me because it affected me in so many ways as a "youth", but even more than that, it affected my marriage.

I discussed this issue of sex and the Watch Tower in detail in my book Escape from Paradise in a chapter entitled "Oral's fair in love and war". Here is an excerpt from that chapter:

---

I became very nervous about the oral sex issue after we were married, mainly because my wife was a very social person. She was given to speaking her mind about things without thinking, especially with people she trusted. This was a dangerous situation for us though, because if Jessica spoke to the wrong person in the congregation about the details of our love life, we could be done for. We could be disfellowshipped just for having loving, mutually consenting married sex in a way that a couple of geezers in New York had decided was perverted. I worried about this the entire time I was married to Jessica, and at the end of the day, it had a negative effect on our otherwise healthy sex life.

Thinking back on it now, I am incensed at the idea of a few old men deciding for the entire world how married couples love lives should be practiced. Who the heck are those old coots anyway to declare that giving my wife an orgasm orally was "perverted"? On what grounds do they claim it "deviant behavior"? Do they have any scripture to back up that assertion? Please don't quote me the Bible verse about homosexuals doing acts against nature. Homosexuals kiss, so does that mean heterosexuals can't kiss? Just because a homosexual does something, doesn't preclude heterosexuals from doing it as well. That's a false and stupid argument.

On the other hand, I can show you Bible scriptures that say I should "dwell with my wife according to knowledge," and that I should "render unto my wife her due." I can tell you that I had the knowledge of my wife's needs enough to understand that sometimes she enjoyed herself the most from cunnilingus. My dwelling with her included giving her due in that way. As a married man, why should I have had to feel fear or guilt about pleasing my own wife?

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by this married sex guilt trip stuff from the Watch Tower prudes. After all, this is the same religion that teaches masturbation is sinful and will destroy you...

- Brock Talon

146

Why I remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses

by Brother Jeramy in

allow me to begin with a clarification: when i say i am one of jehovah's witnesses, i don't mean that i am an advocate of the watchtower society or a devotee of some of its more controversial false teachings.

i mean that i am a christian, a disciple of jesus christ dedicated to jehovah god, and who remains in union with my brothers and sisters who make up the family of faith that globally refers to itself as jehovah's witnesses.

some totally understand the distinction between the family of brothers and sisters and the corporate organization known as the watchtower society (wts).

Brock Talon

Brother Jeramy,

You agreed to this formula: Nazis = WTS. Innocent Germans = The JW people in general

You think therefore that you are akin to being "an innocent German" while the Nazis all around you commit mass murder and wage war on the entire free world. But your agreeing to this analogy is problematic in so many ways. You betray the Stockholm Syndrome mind set I have observed in so many JWs and even some ex-JWs, a syndrome I suffered myself for quite some time.

Here is where you are mistaken:

Innocent Germans existed in Germany LONG BEFORE there were Nazis and they continued to exist after the Nazi rule was over. JWs ONLY exist BECAUSE the WTS exists. They don't exist outside of its construct as you wish desperately to believe. While I agree there is a difference between the JWs as a people and the WTS as an organization, they are indivisible and cannot exist without each other. If you get rid of one, you get rid of the other. One is a reflection of the other. You therefore exist as a JW BECAUSE there is a WTS, not apart from it. That is simply not true of the innocent German you wish to be like.

Innocent Germans couldn't leave their country (they already lived in), they were kept there against their will and HAD to endure while Nazis ruled. JWs are not similarly kept anywhere, except in their own minds, and choose to remain of their own free will (like you).

Innocent Germans did not HAVE to feed the Nazi war machine Jewish victims. JWs DO HAVE to feed the WTS new victims or they are not in good standing (like you).

Innocent Germans did not voluntarily give their funds to the Nazi war machine (they did was was imposed on them, but not a penny more). JWS DO give their money voluntarily, at minimum in literature purchases that funds the WTS machine (like you.)

Innocent Germans worked AGAINST the Nazis when they could because they saw its evils and resisted it at every step (Oskar Schindler and the like) They tried to save people from the Nazi machine. JWs DO NOT work against the WTS and try to save anyone from it (like you.)

Innocent Germans HATED the Nazis and disagreed with their basic teachings, and said as much in private to trusted people. JWs don't hate the WTS and actually defend its teachings in private (like you on this board.)

If a German DIDN'T DO the above things I have stated the innocent German would do, then THEY WERE NOT INNOCENT. They were part and parcel of the Nazi war machine and equally culpable of everything those evil people did because they supported that regime either by default or out of selfishness, or laziness, or delusion. Nazis didn't exist in a vacuum. They got their power FROM the people. So, the individual German was either part of the solution, or they were part of the problem.

Which are you?

104

The Secret is out....but nobody cares

by MrTheocratic in

i've been looking on this site for some time but never posted.

i'll give a little about myself, but not too much.

i'm a ex-bethelite ( brooklyn )and currently serving as an elder (10 years) (thinking about stepping down) on the service committee.

Brock Talon

MrTheocratic

I think you are painting the JW world with a very broad brush, one that is colored by the fact that you are beginning to wake up yourself and starting to recognize the real truth, or what we call "The Truth about The Truth". I am hopeful for you, but as with most people who are waking up, you still have a bit of sleep in your eye.

The thing is, one doesn't have to be a so-called "zealot" or a "blind follower" to be "in" the religion. If you perform field service, give talks and otherwise perpetuate the falsities of the so-called Truth, then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

There have always been the weak and the outliers, then skeptical and the cynics. Still, if those same people attend Witness meetings regularly, pray to Jehovah's publicly, go in field service on weekends, donate money to the organization, avoid holidays, and identify themselves as a Jehovah's Witness to strangers they meet, and push all this stuff on their children and others, then they are very much "in". My parents were "weak" and "skeptical", but that didn't stop them from force feeding me enough of this religion to ruin the early years of my life.

The only exception to this could be those who are attempting to fade so as to not have their lives completely implode on them during their fade. But believe me, those people will do as little of the above things as possible and are wishing for a time and looking for a way to not have to do any of it.

And don't be misled, EVERYONE who is "in" gets hurt by this religion. Period. Yes, some get hurt more than others, but in the end, being a Jehovah's Witness at any level is a lose / lose proposition.

Even for you.

-Brock Talon

29

Fading and not "outing" yourself, what are your thoughts on it?

by Brock Talon in

fading and not "outing" yourself.. what are your thoughts on it?.

i ask, because i just received a scathing personal message on facebook from a person who read my latest book and in it i describe myself as a fader.

i was not dfd and i did not da myself.

Brock Talon

Checking back in after work and seeing some great comments on this fading issue.

I really appreciate those of you that have backed up what I've always thought: It's my business. Other ex-JWs should keep their opinions to themselves about whether I should or should not fade. The more I think about it, it's pretty damn nervy of someone to EXPECT me to DA myself and then to chastise me over it with follow up name calling. That just tells me there's something more there as an underlying issue than just my fading or not. I still cannot guess what that person's real problem may be though. It's a puzzle.

I posted about this same thing on my Facebook page and I got so much support from everyone that something interesting happened: that ugly diatribe of a review on Amazon.com was changed by the militant person who posted it! I think all the comments like the ones you have been saying must have gotten to her. She still crapped all over my book with a bad rating, but the words in the review were changed to be less crazy sounding and self convicting, all the while carving off about 95% of the rambling.

Hmmmm.

Anywayz, I really like having this site as a sounding board for when I think I'm going a bit nuts over this book publishing activity of mine that is so closely connected to the ex-JW world. The ex-JW community as a whole is filled with pretty nice and quite decent folks, but the occasional bad-apple really spoils my party from time to time.

But I've decided not to let it spoil my party permanently. There are other people in attendance that I need to see to, and they deserve my being at my best and not feeling sorry for myself.

After all, it's my party and I'll NOT cry if I want to...

Brock

29

Fading and not "outing" yourself, what are your thoughts on it?

by Brock Talon in

fading and not "outing" yourself.. what are your thoughts on it?.

i ask, because i just received a scathing personal message on facebook from a person who read my latest book and in it i describe myself as a fader.

i was not dfd and i did not da myself.

Brock Talon

Steve2, Magnum, Rip... much appreciated. I'm feeling better. I needed those words today. This community has been very helpful to me in my own healing. This day was another example of that.

Signing off for now...

Brock

29

Fading and not "outing" yourself, what are your thoughts on it?

by Brock Talon in

fading and not "outing" yourself.. what are your thoughts on it?.

i ask, because i just received a scathing personal message on facebook from a person who read my latest book and in it i describe myself as a fader.

i was not dfd and i did not da myself.

Brock Talon

Simon, Ignornace, NVR2L8, Billy... I'm feeling a bit better now, reading your words.Thanks so much.

I've been soundly criticized before, but for some reason, this one really got to me. I guess it was terrible review on Amazon.com with a follow up FU message on Facebook from a person who had "friended" me at first and praised me for my first book that really got me discombobulated. I actually tried connecting with them at the time of my first book publishing and then they did this... really strange.

The really weird thing is that the worst criticism I get is usually from ex-JWs. Not JWs.

Strange days indeed...